David 0:00

The question for today is: do you see yourself as an order taker? Or do you worry maybe that you're not building those kinds of trust relationships that you really envision? And if that's the case, and I know we've all harbored those doubts on occasion, how do you move the needle? We'll find out on this episode of Shift Shapers.

Announcer 0:19

Change either paralyzes or energizes. The choice is yours. You're listening to the Shift Shapers podcast. You're about to learn firsthand from businesses and entrepreneurs who have successfully shaped the shifts in their industries. Get ready to become the change you want to see.

David 0:41

This episode is brought to you by Triune Technologies, creator of the market-leading benefits connector Ben Admin software. Now with special pricing for smaller groups. To learn more, call Carol Motznick at 336-253-5722. That's 336-253-5722. Let Triune help you get out of the admin business and back into the selling business.

Announcer 1:10

And now, here's your host, Story Brand Certified Guide and Chief Transformation Strategist, at Shift Shaper Strategies, David Saltzman.

David 1:22

And to help us answer today's question, we have invited Jason Cutter, whose book, Selling with Authentic Persuasion, is a Great Read, and we'll answer some of those questions. So, Jason, welcome. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, David. It's my pleasure. Talk a little bit about your journey. We always, it's always interesting to find out how our guests got to be doing what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Well, I took the path that most uh consultants, authors, sales trainers, and coaches go. And I got a bachelor's degree in marine biology and tag sharks for a few years.

David 1:54

Makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

You know, this when the career counselor at school is like, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? It's like, all right, well, here's the path. And obviously that's not the case. It's funny because the speaking and training I do, I actually mentioned that at one point I was standing on a boat surrounded by great white sharks. And that was a smarter, safer career choice than dealing with humans, in my mind, in any capacity, which is basically the culmination of my childhood, which wasn't terrible. But I was an awkward, shy, late blooming, bullied only child who didn't fit in, didn't have many friends growing up, to two loving, analytical, fantastic parents that are still together today. But my mom was a banker and moved her way up, and my dad was an engineer and moved his way up for their careers. You know, my mom hated salespeople and uh they were always pessimistic about, you know, people like that trying to sell you something. And I wanted nothing to do really with people as a result of going through school and growing up. And so literally chose marine biology. Needed to get a master's degree in order to do anything in marine biology, literally felt burnt out. Now, in retrospect, looking back, I realized that wasn't the right path for me because I did realize I started getting better with people. I worked in restaurants and I was like, okay, I'm okay with people. Moved to Seattle, got a job at Microsoft doing tech support, realized I was really good at people, but I really didn't like technology. Went into the mortgage business at age 27 in 2002, the height of the real estate boom. It was pure order taking. I learned nothing about sales until years later. And that kind of set me on a path where I didn't even realize I was doing sales for a very long time because I thought sales was gross and dirty in my mind. And what I was doing was just helping people with their mortgage or helping them avoid foreclosure or helping them with their credit card debt. And so it's quite the journey. I even ran away from sales a couple of times thinking I don't want to do anything related to sales and operations, and then, you know, getting pulled back in to what I do today.

David 3:50

You know, nobody's journey is a straight line. It's always fascinating. It's why I love asking the question because everybody's got a strange story about how they ended up, you know, where they are. You always think life is going to be a straight line. And as John Lennon said, life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. So nothing can be further than truth. But let's dial in on our subject of the day. Other than, you know, the folks who listen to the podcast are largely client-facing employee benefits pros. And so the question is, other than your spidey senses, how do you know if you're acting like an order taker?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

It's sometimes it's easier from the outside, like as a manager or as a consultant now, third party. I can listen to interactions or I can watch in a meeting and pick up on it. Order takers are generally relying more on relationship building, on rapport, on empathy, on building trust, and then hoping that is enough to make the sale, whatever the sale is, right? Sometimes the sale is actually selling a product or service and swiping a credit card. Everything in life is sales. So sometimes that sale is recruiting or hiring somebody new and getting them to accept a new position or an offer or whatever that might look like internally, managers helping, selling their team on the direction it's now going to go. But if you rely on those things, rapport, empathy, trust, and then just leave it at that and hope that's enough, then you're acting like an order taker. And depends on what the position calls for, but most of the time it calls for moving someone forward intentionally and with purpose towards a finish line. And the key is that whatever your role is and whatever you're selling, I'm using air quotes here, whatever you're selling, once you identify that it's a value to somebody and it would benefit somebody, and literally, and the way I put it is it would leave somebody better off than when you found them, then you actually owe it to them to help them enroll or buy or move forward or sign up or whatever that looks like. And so you actually owe it to them to move them forward and not just be an order taker.

David 5:54

That's the key that people lose sight of so often is if you, especially in our industry, you lose sight of the tremendous amount of good you do for people because you get caught up in the mechanics of the sales process rather than keeping that last statement that you made, you know, moving somebody forward, leaving them better off, rather than keep them in in mind. So contrast that with being authentic. If you find yourself in that rut, if you find yourself in that place, and I think there's two kinds of people in sales people who have occasionally found themselves there and people who lie about it. So if you want to move forward, how do you move to being authentic? First of all, what is authentic?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Authentic, which there's so many different definitions. Some people dislike authenticity, the word because it's overused in the media. I even had somebody as a guest on my podcast, he's like, I hate the word authenticity. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be fun. Let's roll and see what happens. He preferred transparent. I think the big key is you being who you are. And part of that is focusing on what I call the five sales success traits, things like openness and curiosity, things that you can develop and build. But really, when it comes to a sales or leadership role, is being authentic and being you. What I see is so many times people fall into sales, or they think they're gonna go into sales like their buddy who talked them into sales, or they're gonna go into recruiting because their friend is making a lot of money in recruiting or HR benefits and things like that. And then what happens is they think they have to act like somebody, right? They think they have to act like Wolf of Wall Street or Boiler Room or like their friend, or they have to do sales in a certain way. And then it's just an act and they're trying to do it. It's not authentic. It's usually not what customers want anyway. So it comes across as gross for many reasons. And instead, it's about you being you. And you actually want to help them, right? Not just sell them something they don't need, not just win at their expense, but actually help them. And when you do that, they will pick up on it. It's like animals can sense fear, right? Like prospects can sense if you're not being real with them. And when they know that you're being authentic, even if you're not perfect, which nobody's perfect, they will appreciate that more than the perfect, shiny salesperson.

David 8:17

Because they know that you're acting in their best interest rather than your best interest. So there's a lot of stuff in the book about getting from point A to point B. Let's touch on a few of them. We wouldn't have time to go through the entire book. I cannot recommend the book highly enough. Please go buy it. It's a worthwhile read for anybody who's in sales. But the first thing is you talk about nature versus nurture. And you we may have touched on that a little bit in your last comment, but expand on that a bit.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

I'll give the shortest answer I can for that is a lot of people, I'm gonna use myself as a perfect example. I thought you had to be a natural born salesperson. I thought if you're going to be in sales, you're born this way, you're charismatic, you tell stories, you're you're extroverted, you're over the top, you're you like to be the center of attention and you're confrontational and you love making prank phone calls because you just love getting into it with people and you have no fear. And I thought you're either born that way or not, right? I had a friend early on, he was, I would say, born that way, and I always looked up to him and I was like, this is amazing. Like you should be in sales. And of course, that's where he went. That's the myth, in my opinion, is that so many people who avoid a sales role or something that involves selling, even if it's benefits, even if it's HR recruiting, things like that, is they avoid it because they think, oh, I'm not born that way. I'm not a salesperson. I don't have that as my natural talent. I, again, using myself as a perfect example, like I said in the intro, I made myself into a salesperson. I was, again, this is where I firmly believe you can make yourself into a sales professional with those five sales success traits, which are in the book. But their openness, curiosity, creativity, persistence, and authenticity. Most people in sales think, oh, only way to be successful is to be persistent. If you're not open and curious, then you're just a persistent ass most of the time. And we all have dealt with that person who just they don't get it. But you can make yourself more open and more curious. I was curious about sharks, not about people. And then I started working with people. I'm like, oh, this is fascinating. Let me be curious about them. Let me be open to feedback. Let me be creative with solutions. And so I firmly believe what people really want as customers is the people who make themselves into a professional now. You can have natural-born skills and talents, but if you're an introverted, awkward, analytical person like myself, you can be very effective in sales by making yourself and working on those skills that are also authentic for you.

David 10:41

And now a word from our sponsor, Triune Technologies. As a salesperson or an agency leader, your most valuable commodity is time. That's why it's critically important that your benefits administration doesn't sneakily eat up time that you could be using to build your book or grow your agency. If you or your team is still doing case setup, working on creating and managing EDI feeds and dealing with ACA reporting, it may be time to look for a better tool. Benefit Connector is a done-for-you solution that understands your needs because it was created by benefits professionals just like you. For over 20 years, the system and its amazingly mature business rules have been honed to accept any type of group parameters and to keep you out there selling. Now with special pricing for smaller groups, let Triune help you to get out of the admin business and focus on what you do best. Call Carol Motznick at 336-253-5722. That's 336-253-5722. And now, back to our interview. But if you're not authentic, I'm reminded of a quote they say about people in Washington, in Washington, D.C. You know, if if you want to make it in Washington, you have to be sincere. And if you can fake that, you got it made. And too many people get into sales thinking that that's what it's all about, and it's really, it's really not. You've mentioned a few times the word curious. Talk about why being curious matters if you want to be authentic and you want to be not an order taker.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

The biggest thing is it comes down to two parts. When you're authentically and deeply curious, what happens is you want to know everything about that person, about them if you're selling to an individual, or about them and their business, if you're selling business to business. You just want to know everything. And you're like a detective that's just curious and excited to learn everything you can. And then marry, because you're a sales professional, marry that at the intersection of what you provide, right? Do you offer a solution? Can I help this person? I've now learned everything I can. And then can I give them something again that leaves them in a better place? Sometimes you're solving a problem, sometimes you're helping them achieve a goal. A lot of people in sales are only focused on the pain. How do I get people out of pain? But some potential customers just want to gain, right? You don't need to sell them the pain remedy. And so, how do you leave them in a better place? Where's that intersection? In fact, I even have a chapter in the book, it's called The Power of Saying No, which is if I can't help you, I should tell you no. It's my right, it's my duty to tell you no. And it also is very powerful for me as a salesperson when I tell the wrong people no and the right people yes. And so the curiosity is getting to that. Where a lot of people in sales miss the mark is they go into sales, they drink the Kool-Aid, they read the company brochure. The company says, what you're selling is amazing. We're the best at it in the world, and everyone's gonna want this now. Go. And so what happens is they have conversations with potential buyers of whatever it is, and they don't care about the other person. They are on a mission. I'm going to sell this to everyone. Do you have a pulse? Do you have a credit card? Sounds good. Let's go. Like I really don't care what you want or what how this will really change your life. I'm just on a mission. And so that's where if you're curious, you're going to get to the heart of those matters. The other part that's interesting is when you're really authentically deeply curious, you're going to ask lots of questions. When you're in sales role and you ask lots of questions, the other person does most of the talking. When the other person does most of the talking, they've built a relationship with you where they feel like you care and they trust you without you having to say everything. Think about a time when you talk to somebody, a stranger or a friend, and all they did was ask you questions and they were curious and they were excited to learn about it. At first it's weird because you're like, I feel like I'm talking a lot. And then by the end of it, you're like, that was amazing. And I really like this person. Like they didn't even say anything. I just really like them. When you do that in sales, it's game changer. Plus, it's totally different than most people in sales. So it'll set you up.

David 14:48

That's true. I mean, we have a podcast, interestingly enough, starting the first of February, which is a couple of weeks from while we're recording this. And it's literally the title of the podcast is Talk Less, Sell More. That's it. And that's the entire premise is be curious, ask questions, ask open-ended questions, stop talking, let your prospect or your potential client talk. They'll tell you everything you need to know to be successful. But let's get back to the book. You say that that being able to move from point A to point B, if you need to make this change, starts with a self-assessment. And I found this interesting, admitting your fears. What did you mean when you wrote those?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

So we humans are interesting, curious, dangerous creatures. And keeping in mind, the stuff that works for somebody in sales works for your potential customers because they're also humans. We all have fears and doubts and backgrounds and histories, like you said, windy pasts, things that have happened, things that are going on in our life right now that are affecting us, things that are going on in our life right now that we hope nobody ever finds out about because we're embarrassed or worried about it in our tribal society. But we have fears. Fears, especially in a sales role that's fraught with danger, can cripple you or just destroy your chances. Sales, when you're amazing, depending on what you're selling and your lead source and your metrics, you may be successful 20 to 30% of the time. Again, depending on what you're selling, which means you're amazing at sales, but you're failing to close 70, 80% of your opportunities. Some industries, it's even more than that. It's like if you're amazing, you close 10%, which means you're missing the ball 90% of the time. That is hard on us mentally as humans. The amygdala, the primal survival portion of our brain, does not like danger and threats. It doesn't like attacks on the ego, and it doesn't like feeling like it's going to fail and we're going to get kicked out of the tribe of humans, which I know sounds dramatic, but that's what's going on in that primal part of our brain. And so that's what you're up against. So the biggest thing you can do is understand your fears, no fear, K-N-O-W, and then know what you're up against, know what triggers in you, know where that's coming from, right? It takes a little bit of almost therapy for yourself. And then be able to put things in place when you know that comes up, when that call hesitation happens, you're like, I don't want to call that person in your brain. It's saying, yeah, because they might reject you. You've got to do it anyway, right? You got to understand if I'm trying to help people, even if they say no, that's okay because it's not about me, it's about them.

David 17:17

Yeah. The people misunderstand both on the sales side, on the salesperson side, and also on the prospect or client side, how powerful the amygdala is and how much it rules. Daniel Kahneman wrote a great book called Thinking Fast and Slow, all about that. And we go through the universe like little hunks of protoplasm, thinking that we're making decisions with our prefrontal cortex, with the reasoning part of our brain. And in point of fact, we don't make decisions as salespeople, and buyers don't make buying decisions based on logic at all. It's all emotion. It's instantly rationalized by our prefrontal cortex, but that's our evolution. But we're still back to the, oh my gosh, a tiger is going to eat my leg off. It's a perfect point to make, and it's it's really true. What is positive persuasion?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

So if we look at definitions of words, and I'm a math and science marine biology guy, not a grammar language guy.

David 18:13

I can tell from the shark behind you.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

By all that stuff and everything going on, I researched things when I came up with the words and the stuff that I use in my book. And so manipulation is clear. If we look at the definition of manipulation, that's doing something to something else, maybe not even for its own benefit. For example, we manipulate clay into a bowl, we nip manipulate wood into a dresser, right? The clay doesn't have a choice, it doesn't have a vote, it just is along for the ride. Obviously, we manipulate people, or people can be manipulated, and people do that all the time in sales. Persuasion is not so clear that you can persuade somebody and it's always a positive win-win benefit. So persuasion is I'm going to persuade you to take an action. It may or may not benefit you. So you can still persuade and get people to do things they might not want or might not benefit them. So of course, I prefer to positive persuasion because I want the outcome to be positive. Again, maybe I don't sell you something. Maybe I tell you you don't qualify or you shouldn't buy this. Here's what you should go do instead. Or I'm going to positively persuade you to buy from me because I know that it's going to help you.

David 19:22

We're kind of running out of time. There's so much in the book and so much to talk about. When you talk about sales success, you talk about some intangibles. What are the intangibles that you need to take into account?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

So the overarching thing with intangibles is these are the small things that when one professional is in competition with another professional, it's the little things that make a difference. So if anyone is a basketball fan, the intangibles are the things that aren't on a scorecard or on a stat sheet, like hustle plays or somebody scrambling for a ball or putting pressure on somebody else. Those don't show up in the stats, but it's the difference. In sales, you might be thinking, well, I'm a professional, but I'm not up against a professional. But again, you are. You're up against a scared human who is worried about making a mistake. And that amygdala that you were just mentioning has been around for eons, keeping us alive. And that's what you're up against. You're up against something even harder than anyone realizes when they get into sales. They truly don't understand what they're up against. So the intangibles are the difference makers. It's the little things that you can do. For example, in sales, most people don't close their sales in one meeting or phone call. There's follow-ups. How you set those follow-ups, what you do in those follow-ups, it's the difference makers. A lot of order takers say, all right, well, I'll send you some information and I'll call you next week and let's, you know, I'll follow up with you and see if you're interested. I call it the prospect witness protection program. You're never going to hear from that person again because you didn't set it strong and you didn't build value and you have no idea why they should even answer. There's also pausing. Pausing is very important in sales. The thing that most people learn in sales is that when you say a number, let's say I'm giving you a price, I say the price is $10,000. I need to pause. If I don't pause and I speak next, I lose. Whoever speaks next loses their position and control. And so the skilled salesperson knows to throw out a number and then wait as long and as awkward as it gets. However, there's another kind of pause that's deadly, which is when you ask me a question, I respond with a rebuttal or an answer or whatever. And then I pause, that gives your brain space to keep being afraid and come up with another question, concern, or objection, and then hit me with another one. And then I've got to answer that. And if I pause, which most order takers do because they want to be nice, they want to make sure that the answer was okay with you, you're leaving this space. And I call it a death by a thousand punches because what happens is they'll just keep throwing up questions, objections, and concerns at you until they knock you out, until you no longer have an answer that overcomes their fear, and then they're gone.

David 21:56

Absolutely. All great advice. Hey, Jason, we're out of time, unfortunately. But Katz, go pick up the book. It is a great read. It's called Selling with Authentic Persuasion. The author is under my fingertips here. It is Jason Cutter, who's our guest today. Jason, thanks so much for sharing your expertise and your book with us.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Thanks for having me on here, David. It was so fun. I wish we had more time. Equally so.

Announcer 22:18

The Shift Shapers podcast is a production of Shift Shaper Strategies and may not be reproduced or quoted in whole or in part without our express written permission. Copyright 2020, all rights reserved.