Ep #490 Navigating Modern Marketing Challenges with Steven Amiel | ShiftShapers

Speaker 1: 0:00

Why is it that marketing is so much harder, expensive and showing less ROI than ever before, and what can you do about it? We'll find out on this episode of Shift Shapers.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Change either energizes or paralyzes. The choice is yours. This is the Shift Shapers podcast, bringing the employee benefits industry interviews with individuals and companies who are shaping the industry shifts. And now here's your host, david Saltzman.

Speaker 1: 0:36

And to help us answer that question, we've invited my buddy, Stephen Amiel, who is CMO at NextGen Benefits. Welcome, Stephen.

Speaker 3: 0:43

Good morning, nice to see you, david.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Good to see you. Thanks for being here. I know that there's lots of depth to all of these answers and we're going to try to stay at 10,000 feet, so they apply to all of our listeners in one way or another, not just individual practitioners or humongous companies, and we'll try to stay in that middle ground if we can. But the answer to the question that I asked comes in a few categories, I think, and the first is that there's a whole set of new rules about tracking and targeting prospects. What's that all about?

Speaker 3: 1:16

Good question. Bottom line is that over the last two to three years, the government has continually put boundaries as to how we can market the type of information we can collect. In the past, we would put a cookie on our browser and we would track you from site to site. Then we learned how to do it from device to device. But all of that has been, in essence, taken away. The new boundaries, the speed bump that's there now, is called not just opt-in, but really double opting in for what you're offering. In the past, I used to be able to just take a list and run it against any other opt-in list and then give myself permission to market. We can't do that anymore and more importantly is that people aren't responding unless it's an authentic communication to begin with.

Speaker 1: 2:19

When you say authentic communication, what does that mean in the marketing sense?

Speaker 3: 2:27

communication. What does that mean in the marketing sense? So this is a great time to mention what happened a couple of days ago. So for one of the people that we work with that we do all the marketing for and sent out, you know, posts and blogs, he came back and said listen, steve, I've gotten some complaints, not that the information is bad, but that it didn't feel like it was coming from me. That's a huge distinction. One of the biggest problems people repost and assume that people are going to read the repost and align it with you. The fact is, what matters from that is your opinion. That's the important thing that's missing in so many blogs and posts is your opinion, what's your sway to it, what's your take on it? And that's what is part of the foundation of authenticity I'm speaking about.

Speaker 1: 3:24

That's what is part of the foundation of authenticity I'm speaking about. So if you're working on a campaign and you're doing written or spoken or pretty much any kind of communications, don't try to sound like somebody you're not. Is that the takeaway? Try to sound like you and the way you normally approach prospects.

Speaker 3: 3:43

Yes? The short answer to that is yes. It's being as much of yourself as possible and leveraging whatever skills that you have to align with that. So what's coming out is something that's authentic, easy for you to do and say, for you to do and say.

Speaker 3: 4:07

One of the biggest problems with salespeople today, whether they're independent agents marketing themselves or with small groups, is they tend to take on more than they can handle in marketing, and therein lies probably the biggest fail in marketing today when you look at the spectrum of the things that we're told to do, things like marketing on LinkedIn. Let's start sending out and it's the great LinkedIn program 150 people per week, or 100 per week we send to your type of audience to see if they also have two eyes and blue hair. Right, we aligned to, and the fact is, what happens to a salesperson is now that 400. You know little connections you tried to make this month. Maybe 15 or 20 will respond, right, but now you still have to continue with the other 425. Start to respond, respond to the 15. And the point is it's not a sustainable type of methodology to build leads. Right? That's from my standpoint. If you're not getting an appointment from that type of marketing technique, then you're either just laying down carpet right and building brand awareness or you're wasting your time.

Speaker 1: 5:29

It's interesting. You mentioned LinkedIn, but there are. It seems like there are a zillion different platforms to market on, and I know there's some people who are very pro-social media and there's some people who aren't. I think, in my experience doing marketing, the people who are pro-social media are the people who are really thrilled with getting likes or opens and not tracking conversions. So let's talk about, before we talk about all the other platforms. Let's talk about the difference between a like or an open and a conversion, and why the only thing that really matters if you're marketing is the conversions and why the only thing that really matters if you're marketing is the conversions.

Speaker 3: 6:10

So if you're building brand, getting followers, people that like what you're doing, is terrific. Now, if you're a diligent sales guy, you start to respond to those people back, right, you start to form your posts and blogs as almost ways for people to engage, right. So the biggest headline of all is third-party data doesn't work very well, right? We're not talking about one in a hundred thousand. Oh, I got one appointment last month. If you did that from a marketing effort, it's probably a fail, right? So it's really about making sure that your strategy is engaging people to respond. So you're collecting first-party data and information you can use. Use because third-party data right now, because of all the law changes, you really must send only to what's called a valid email address. All right, and there are ways to make sure to test for validity and that's putting it through companies like never, never bounce and a few others. But the problems of delivery just because it's valid, it may get stopped from the company ESP or the company's own internal bouncing.

Speaker 1: 7:39

Spam filters right.

Speaker 3: 7:41

Excuse me, spam filters. Thank you, you're welcome, or, right, Excuse me spam filters. Thank you, you're welcome, so I could send a valid email to you at your company, but internally it will be bounced because you haven't answered an email in two months, right? So there are a lot of other things that impact the deliverability. We think it delivers, but it doesn't.

Speaker 3: 8:05

So the swing and switch is, from my standpoint, going from the mass advertising to the focus on what I call an account-based marketing approach, where you're leveraging the strength of a salesman right with someone that has raised their hand and a technique to hopefully generate a good meeting and build some rapport over a 30-day period. That, to me, is efficient. Having a salesperson spending 30 or 20 hours per month on managing LinkedIn, trying to look at his funnel from his pipeline on all the emails and who opened, who responded, it's a mess and it's a fail. So, no matter how many leads and quality people that tend to come through those channels, they're not really managed very well or dealt with quickly, and you know this better than I do, david. Every day you wait to respond to someone that had an inquiry, the chances of them responding back drops 50% every day.

Speaker 1: 9:15

Yeah, they get stale really quickly.

Speaker 3: 9:17

Yeah. So the bottom line of this piece is about how do you leverage technology today to build first-party data, to get people engaged and enrolled in what you're doing. And again, I just don't think that the big net is the way to go today Because, in essence, how many people that have done LinkedIn or email marketing to you in the last year have you engaged with? I have a few times, but the techniques and the tactics and the timeliness of it was relevant, but not enough, as a sole proprietor, to build a business on, to build a pipeline on, to build a consistent pipeline that I can depend on.

Speaker 1: 10:09

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Speaker 1: 11:26

Now back to our conversation. You know, I know that it's difficult for all folks because they you know our audience wants to go out and sell. They don't want to be tied to a computer and answering emails and doing all that kind of stuff, and I don't know that these days, a lot of us who are traditional salespeople really understand all of the tools and techniques you're talking about. Yet it's very difficult for somebody in a medium-sized, even practice, to hire a full-time chief marketing officer. You know what can they do in terms of getting advice and help from somebody who's, you know, been in the business forever, like you have, and who's up on all the most recent techniques ever like you have and who's up on all the most recent techniques, only market that which you can consume.

Speaker 3: 12:17

So it's like don't order two steaks if you could only eat one. It's a waste. It's a wasted time and money. So it's first acknowledging what do I have the capacity to do, what do I have the knowledge to do. Then building a plan and a strategy around that that generates activity, that allows you to quickly and here's where the other half of the problem is is what do people do with their leads? Where did the lead come in from? What did they download? What's the approach we're going to take to speak to that prospect? And that's the other huge area. The huge gap is how people prepare for their meeting. I don't believe in preparing for a meeting. I believe in preparing for a sale, all right, and that always starts with preparing for the second meeting, establishing my credibility, right. So I have established a gap, something that's different from what they saw. That then naturally leads into that next meeting.

Speaker 3: 13:23

All too often, people treat leads that come in exactly the same, and the fact is, nothing could be further from the truth, and the greatest area of success should not be spent on trying to generate a million leads, it should be having five or 10 great leads that have been marketed, to have raised their hand through some of the techniques that we'll talk about and then get a great playbook on what's in it for them. What's important to them If it's a company that speaks about on their website the family business and it's been transferred from generation to generation. It's a lifestyle business. So you're going to focus your value proposition to what's important to them. If they're a manufacturer and they're in a business that's very capital intensive, you're going to speak about your value in terms of cash flow and the ability to leverage your health care budgets to be able to improve the health of the entire organization, including cash flow.

Speaker 3: 14:36

So that's the first step, is the playbook. That's how you establish credibility and I don't care if it's an HR person or a CEO, all right. And we're finding today to sell some of the more strategic alternatives to, you know, insurance carriers. You're looking to speak to the CEO and not the HR department. Typically, hr really cares about the employees and cost. The CEO cares about the entire health of the organization and leveraging health care and how they can use those dollars to improve, whether retention, whether for capital equipment for EBITDA. So there are many techniques we know that we can leverage. The point is to go there with an understanding of an approach you're taking to the listening that you know they have.

Speaker 1: 15:34

Does that also apply to the channels that you select to use for your campaign?

Speaker 3: 15:38

Hmm, Great question. So the answer is yes. It's a resounding yes, and here's where we step back to and here's where we step back to. So I don't care if you're marketing through LinkedIn, facebook, tiktok or podcasts or sponsoring podcasts. What matters is the message that you're communicating is aligned to the listening of the target you're selling to. Biggest mistake that I see today is if you are selling alternative strategies, you're still trying to sell the way you did to HR, and that's a disconnect. So in all of my emails and all of the posts and blogs you'll see always some sort of reference to as senior management or as a fiduciary. You know it speaks to who they are, and to me, lead generation is all about, as quickly as possible, establishing executive credibility that piques an interest to learn more that PKs an interest to learn more.

Speaker 1: 16:55

Is there a difference? I mean, you and I have both been around folks who sell small size groups and then these days, both of us have been more focused on the large group market. But is there a difference in how you approach those two markets?

Speaker 3: 17:16

So so far, no. The answer is from a marketing standpoint, most companies, whether small or large, have same issues, just with additional zeros, right? So my feeling is typically smaller companies you're always going to deal with an owner, so that goes without saying. Um, smaller companies, you have less political issues to deal with, right? You don't have, typically, a marketing manager or an hr person that you're threatening in some way. So I think it's a simple, more clear, direct sell and I think their access is also easier right to get to someone. Lastly, as it relates to that, typically in a larger company they're going to have an executive assistant. There's going to be some people in between, and I find that one of the issues that most salespeople have in that space is they don't treat the EA as an advocate, as an internal coach, as someone that can help them get to the CEO as an advocate, and that, I think, is also a big miss and extremely important in larger companies.

Speaker 1: 18:35

One of the things that a lot of practitioners struggle with is differentiating themselves and differentiating their practice From a marketing standpoint. What would you suggest as good tools or techniques to help them do that, to help them achieve some differentiation from their competition in their particular market?

Speaker 3: 18:56

It requires understanding the company that you're selling to. The biggest distinction between an A salesman and a C salesman first, an A salesman doesn't need our help because they got it, they were born with it. Good for them. But anything below an A, a B or a C, they're not doing the heavy lifting. Right Explain. So what that means is most salesmen feel that the goal is to get the email out. The goal is to maybe get a conversation, not to get the sale.

Speaker 1: 19:34

So it's about now having very compartmentalized is the word you're looking for.

Speaker 3: 19:43

Thank you. They look at each stage instead of looking at it as a continuum. My goal is to complete this sale. What do I need to do that? How do I differentiate myself from everyone else? By being prepared, by going in and saying well, you know bottom line from our conversations you're telling me about good retention, with hourly employees that come and go but yet really impact the quality of your business. Well, we can help that right without impacting your P&L Right. So it's about the good sales. People create a distinction, go in and create a delta that was not thought of by management. That comes from understanding the toolkit of what you're able to bring to bear and overlaying it, contouring it to their situation. That happens in the first meeting. That happens in the first meeting.

Speaker 1: 20:46

But it's not your logo or your business card or, at least to a much lesser extent, any of that external kind of stuff. It's really more about what I hear you saying is. It's more about knowing your prospect before you make any kind of approach.

Speaker 3: 21:08

Yes, the other half of that side, about when you just mentioned about the personal differentiation. The failure of most salespeople is they go in and they say, hey, so why did you want us to come in today? What's the reason? Or hey, well, thank you for meeting with me, let's just jump right into it. Let me get this PowerPoint going without establishing any type of executive credibility. When you go right into it and don't have the credibility they hear barking, you're an insurance salesman and you're listened to as one, it's critical that the first question, your first engagement, is always about a peer-to-peer conversation with the CEO, a question that's at his level. It's not an HR question. It might be. I see you're a manufacturer and you probably get some of your materials from the Middle East that go through the Red.

Speaker 2: 22:02

Sea.

Speaker 3: 22:02

How has that impacted your ability to meet your deliveries and your costs and your profitability? Those types of questions are the ones that establish a listening. To take you to the next step, backtrack that to the marketing. What you're doing is, in essence, trying to create little gaps in your marketing. That's why, to me, reposting is silly, because it's not genuine. It's not about me, it's not building my authenticity, it's not about sending them, you know, with dimensional mailers. It's not about sending them the toy Ferrari and hey, if you have an appointment with me, I'll bring the remote. That doesn't do anything to you, right? But leveraging other types of metaphors that you can send to be a little audacious, like a drone or night goggles, well, that allows you to say well, you know what? As a healthcare consultant, we see your business differently than an insurance broker does. We see it holistically of how healthcare can improve the entire company, not just the employees. So that's part of what, to me, the marketing setup is all about.

Speaker 1: 23:23

We've got a few minutes left. I frequently ask the question what do you see coming in the near term, or even the midterm, for for marketing as a as a means to generate business for all of our audience? What changes do you see on the horizon?

Speaker 3: 23:40

well, how about if I speak to it as things, to what I would be doing in the next year and how I'm changing our marketing? Perfect. So webinars, right, we all know about webinars, we do it. If it's a good topic, a good person will get people in and they listen, then they leave, then you send the post webinar. Thank you attending, or sorry, we missed you. Here's the clip.

Speaker 3: 24:08

It's about engaging people during that webinar with tools like excuse me, and this is I don't do anything for them. On24 is a great excuse me webinar tool because it allows interactive interaction. You can have resources people can click on. They have polls people can ask. So all of a sudden, you're building first-party DNA about someone that becomes the foundation of that next communication.

Speaker 3: 24:37

I saw that Second thing grease the pipes with a story about yourself. Speak about yourself. Most people want to share the truth, right, but for all the wrong reasons they don't. We haven't established credibility, so we get deflected right of what the real reason, no, is we don't get that. For me, I try to establish credibility by sharing about my life in a situation that would be relatable, to give him an opportunity to share back and begin to open a door. And that all starts with how they first engage with you. I don't believe in just in this next year and what we do now, in just sending insurance information out to people. If you're marketing to a good type group of CEOs or CFOs in the companies of a certain size, they're your market, they're who you want. So give them information on business related topics, on lifestyle related topics, and, however they engage, engage back the same way to build the path For 2024-25, it's all about building credibility.

Speaker 1: 25:57

And that is a great place to end our conversation for today. Stephen Amiel, CMO of NextGen Benefits. Stephen, thanks for sharing some of your wisdom with our audience. We appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 26:08

My pleasure. Thank you, David, for having me.

Speaker 2: 26:11

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