David 0:00

Why is it more important to focus on how to find this? And just to figure out whether or not you have a 455 answer a little bit more than a few CEO of salesfeel, a sales intelligence firm that helps sales people be more credible, and author of a really neat little book that I had the pleasure of reading called Skills Credit. And that's what we're going to talk about today. This is actually an actionable journal. It's not just a novel, but there's loads of really good information here. So I commend this to you. We'll put it in the show notes, et cetera. Welcome, Lee. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, David. Appreciate it. So give me a quick synopsis of your journey because everybody, it's always interesting to hear how people got to be doing what they're doing today.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's funny. I started off in sales. My first job while I was in college, actually, was in sales. First job out of college, sales. Every job after that, sales. And we started a company called Sales Fuel back when I was 23. So that was a little while ago, as a research company. And the idea there was, you know, I found that I was most successful in sales. This is before the internet, mind you, that I would, you know, take articles, anything that I had found, learned, or whatever, and share that then, you know, with my clients and kind of ask them, hey, I was thinking about your business today. Have you heard about this or have you seen this? And the thing is that that set me up to be a value provider. So what I did is I started a company that would actually just do that for all kinds of different categories of businesses and make that real easy for salespeople to do what I did. So that was how the company got started and then been doing this all these years, building up to a multi-million dollar company. And finally the light bulb went off during the pandemic, that all this time really, you know, what I had really been doing was helping salespeople become more credible with their buyers. You know, so that, and then I started questioning then a lot of the things that we do in the sales industry. And as you mentioned in the uh intro, we talk about is a prospect then in our ideal customer profile, do they spend enough money to be an enterprise account? Do they have the budget? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And reality, what we're not thinking enough about is okay, why am I qualified then to go in and consult them on what they need to do? You know, how are they seeing us? How are they perceiving us as salespeople? Or not just the it's just not just the salespeople, but it's also the company. So a lot of people are kind of in tune with the company thing already. I mean, it's branding and marketing, everyone kind of gets that, but what people don't really understand is that the buyers are not just researching the company, they're researching the salesperson whenever they get an email or a phone call or anything like that from them before they'll ever take a meeting with them. And so that's kind of what led that change in thinking, you know, which is what happens when you have idle time on your hands during the pandemic and your lockdown. It's really kind of what led to the whole premise of the book Sales Craig.

David 3:14

I understand. We all had unfortunately lots more time than we knew what to do with. Some of us learned things, others of us didn't. But it was time that was there, and I'm glad you took advantage of it. I did some things in my practice as well. So let's talk a little bit about how the buyer perceives the seller, because the entire thesis is that that's so important. It's you know, it's consistent with the work that we do in our firm as a fractional CMO, and and my story brand training is to make the main character the person that I'm going to see, not the other way around. It's not, I'm not riding it on a white horse. So talk about how a buyer, what the components are of how a buyer perceives the seller.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Well, I mean, and you're absolutely right. I love how when you do it, you talk about the customer, in this case, being the hero of whatever story that you tell. And so many times we want to go in there and we want to talk about we and I and everything like that, impress them with how great I am or how great great our company is. So this is along that same vein. And in in my book, I mentioned three pillars of credibility. And I'll just tell you since I wrote the book, really there's a fourth pillar of credibility, which I'm going to talk about in a second. But you know, people buy from people who they know, like, and trust. And so obviously, we made the three pillars of credibility being likable, being trustworthy. And so being known is really about being visible. I had an old professor back at high university who taught public relations, and he said public relations is living well and telling people about it. So social media pretty much is exactly all of that. And it's not just social, so that when people then Google you or the younger generations will search you on YouTube, maybe sometimes before they'll do a Google search, or LinkedIn, if you're B2B, if you don't show up, you're not relevant. And then it's not just, you know, do you show up, but it's also how you show up. So when they do find you, it's like they're going to look through that and say, okay, is this person really somebody that can help me solve my problem or help me achieve my goal? Or is this just another salesman? And the issue there is that 25%, or let's put this right, only one quarter of Americans believe that salespeople are incredible in what they say and do. Which means that as salespeople, we start off any new business relationship from behind. You know, until they get to know us and see what we're about, whether it be digitally or in person or virtually, then through a Zoom meeting, until that happens, then they distrust us. There's a river of distrust that has been flowing through these types of relationships from bad salespeople that don't do their homework, that will lie, exaggerate, and not do what's best for the customer. And unfortunately, we're put into that group until we prove otherwise. And so, first of all, we have to be known and then be likable when we show up. And that's something that most salespeople are pretty good at. Being trustworthy, we have to say what we're what we're going to do. We don't exaggerate. And then the fourth pillar, then, that's a new one, is being helpful. And a lot of people talk about I don't want to be in sales, it feels kind of icky, and like that. You know what? Sales is about helping other people. Simple as that. So, and if you are helpful and you prove that you have the capability of being helpful and that you have a track record of having helped other people that are similar, then you will have that fourth pillar of credibility. And that's pretty much the four things that buyers are looking at.

David 6:18

Yeah, at the end of the day, it it is now, it has been, and it always will be a relationship business. The question is how do you get to the point where you establish enough empathy and authority to create that relationship? So in the book, one of the things you talk about is the hierarchy of sales credibility. Talk a little bit about that. Explain what you mean by that.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

So every salesperson, especially a B2B salesperson, really wants to achieve this magical status of trusted advisor. And so we they want to be trusted so that you know you can come to us and ask for, hey, I'm considering this or that, or I'm thinking I have a problem with this, and I've been tasked to do that, you know, how can you help? That's the status that we want to achieve. And again, I mentioned that that river of distrust is like credibility is the bridge that gets over that river of distrust into the ability to be a trusted advisor. So without credibility, we can never achieve trusted advisor status. So that status is the pinnacle of the hierarchy of sales credibility. It's five levels. And the first level is what the internet says about you. So that would be, if you're a company, that would be customer reviews. If you're a salesperson, it's what your LinkedIn profile says. It's when someone Googles you, what do they what do they see? If someone does a YouTube search, do they find videos? The younger generations also like to take a look at Instagram. You know, so if they find some things on your uh social media that are a little unsavory or offensive to them, you know, for whatever slight reason or something like that, that's going to hurt your credibility. So it starts right there. And you may never make it past that. And that's one of the reasons why at my company, then we also then help salespeople take a look at their seven-year history of their social media, help them build a LinkedIn profile, help them build enough content that they show up on the first page of a Google search. So that's one of the things that we do here. So that's the first level.

David 8:06

Can you give us an example of what like a an off-putting message might be and how that would be better phrased or better said so that it isn't off-putting?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, no, it could be as simple as a lot of people just think, hey, my social media is my social media. I'm gonna say what I what I want to say. And, you know, so if I'm somebody that is a progressive and you want to go on your social media and talk about how great, you know, certain recent presidents have been or something like that, that I find repulsive or something like that, then I'm not gonna like that. Similarly, if you want to talk about lockdowns and government overreach and everything like that, and how great that is and how that's necessary, and the government needs to think for for us and like that, as a conservative, I would be offended by that. So, as you can probably tell I'm a moderate, so I get offended at everybody.

David 8:51

An equal opportunity employer.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Exactly. But those are just a couple examples from politics. I mean, there's other things where some of the things that you may have said in jest as a joke or something like that. The problem of it is that one, it's in text, so it's open to interpretation. And two, it's like, you know, that may not it's without context sometimes, you know, and so you how you said it was in relationship to something that happened four years ago, but no longer in context, and now you know, it's it's a bad perception, a bad impression, and that uh that harms credibility at that point because like the particularly the younger generation of buyers, you know, they just don't want to know what you can do. They want to know what you stand for, and they want to know, hey, am I gonna actually enjoy working with this person or not? And you know, that's a disqualification that happens before you even get a chance then to get that meeting accepted.

David 9:39

Yeah, I think we all do it. I mean, even in my practice, if I'm talking to somebody that is looking for my services and I get the feeling that this is not gonna be a good fit, I pass them along to somebody else because life is too short. So, what's the next level up in the hierarchy?

SPEAKER_01 9:53

So the next level is if you make it past the first one, which is what you say. So that's really about asking smart questions. You have the dumbest question, for example, that a salesperson can ask is tell me about your business today. Look, we've got the internet. I mean, really? And it's amazing how many salespeople actually will not, actually, I think it's only 39%. I I I've checked the book on that, but please fact check me on that, is that we'll actually research a company's website before they'll call on them. And the idea is to provide relevant value to them. So it's not just to take some marketing stuff out, you know, that you think is valuable and everything like that. It has to be relevant to them. And the most relevant thing to them is what the CEO, the owner of the company, you know, is wanting to achieve or needs to overcome. Like, so whatever the CEO of the company, whatever she talks about the most and like that, that's the most relevant thing. And whatever information or trends or suggestions that you can provide that to help that, that's the most relevant thing. So what you say is is the number two thing.

David 10:49

Okay. Next.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Number three is how you say it. So again, we're getting back to uh you know how you communicate, how you communicate by email. Are your emails garbage? Are they written by AI so that means they're safe and bland and everything like that? Or are you actually putting some feeling into it as a human being? Do you text? You know, so if they text you, do you text them back, or do you just assume it's okay to text them, even though they've really not uh given you any indications that that would be okay to them? Maybe send it by do you communicate by video? How do you communicate in online meetings? You know, simple things like what's the background look like? If it looks like a cluttered mess and everything like that, you look like a cluttered mess. So how you say it is, you know, and the other thing is that you know when you have to deliver bad news, for example, do you deliver it with the proper level of warmth and empathy? And the more difficult something is to say, the more you have to be very careful about how you present that. So those are just some examples of how you say it.

David 11:45

Two more levels on the pyramid?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Two more. So now we the first three levels, and this is something new, it's not in the book. And what's really great about this, Damon, I'm sure you go through this as well, when when you write something, you publish it, and everything like that, you know, as you're talking about and everything like that, you develop new content. So the first three levels of the hierarchy are really about talking the talk. The top two are really about walking the talk or walking the walk. So the fourth level is what you do. So it's that will you actually provide positive business outcomes? Will you actually do what you said you were going to do? And you know, when you do that, are you performing this with honesty, with an authenticity, congruency? That's what it's really all about, the rubber with the road. But a lot of salespeople can talk the talk. But when it comes to actually delivering and doing what they said they were going to do, that's where a lot of them fall down. And the last level up? The last one is the pinnacle, which is what they say about you, and they being the buyer. So this is where you get, you've done such a good job. You were likable, you were trustworthy, you were somebody then that they didn't feel like you know that they were going to har harm their credibility by doing business with. They enjoy working with you, they heard you, and you did what you said you were going to do, and you helped them with their problem or achieve their goal. That's when they want to share their credibility with you. And they'll give you a referral if you ask for it, testimonials, reviews, case studies, like that, because you've earned it by doing what you said you were going to do and help them.

David 13:14

One of the things that I thought was interesting that you mentioned in the book is that more complex solutions require more complex credibility. What would be a more complex solution and how do you get more credibility than just table stakes?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

So there's a situation like anything that's high-tech, anything that is like medical, healthcare, stuff, for example, then it's just a simple matter of, hey, selling a pack of chewing gum is one thing. But if we want to talk about having to sell some of my clients selling industrial equipment, for example, in different parts of the world and everything like that, that that's what's required there that you have to have an understanding about how your product is actually used, the actual use case. And in this case, you have to think about government regulations and you have to think about international concerns and like that. So you have to build credibility on all those types of things in order to be more credible than the other guy. The other guy or gal is is got your competition.

David 14:08

So is there a very fine line between confidence and arrogance? And how do you know when you've stepped over that line besides that sales dry up?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Yeah, well, that's the first thing. It's like when you notice that your email stopped getting returned, or it takes forever for you to get your phone call returned, or you're asking for, hey, it's like, you know, we were supposed to meet today or whatever, you know, I was to go over this thing and I haven't gotten it from you. You know, whenever you start to feel distance between you and the buyer, that's a pretty good indication of that. But the problem with arrogance is that sometimes the arrogant person doesn't realize they're being arrogant. You know, so what they think is confidence, they can be perceived as arrogance. And the thing is, like, it's really not how what you think it is. Credibility is not what you think it is, it's what they think it is. And so if they think you're being arrogant, guess what? You're being arrogant, whether you intend to be or not. And a lot of salespeople don't intend to be arrogant, but it does sometimes come across that way.

David 15:00

So we've got a couple of minutes left. What are the top three things that you would suggest salespeople do as they start to inventory where they are along the level of credibility as perceived by their desired buyer?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

So I would say the first thing is to change the mindset. Being human-centric, for example, stop doing as much AI and marketing automation and workflows and scripted sales pitches and everything like that, and be a human being. That's where the authenticity comes into play. So I think that that's a big one. Another thing that sometimes gets uh overlooked is take a look at your digital credibility, you know, how you show up in the digital world. A lot of people, particularly the old the older folks, as as we get into Gen X and boomers or whatever, that's not really that important. You know, I've been doing this job for so many years and like that. It's that important though today as the buyers get younger and younger. And I think the third thing that I would recommend would have to be learn. Learn and write. It's about sales, you know, a lot of people say sales is a numbers game. I say sales is an intelligence game. So I would much rather have someone make fewer sales calls and make more intelligent sales calls and provide relevant value and ask smart questions and take a smart, intelligent approach to it than just blasting out a million emails and dialing, you know, dial a telephone until their fingers bleed. So sales is really an intelligence game, and really and when you're more intelligent, then you're going to be able to share more intelligence that you've gleaned from other people. And sometimes it's like you have a lot of consultants that are out there. It's like, and I you know, we all do it to some extent. You know, it's like we will have the ideas that we have were based off of ideas that other people have had. It's like so the whole idea of credibility, for example, goes all the way back to Aristotle and his triad, uh, the Aristotle's triad of rhetoric and persuasion. You know, and you know, the top of that triangle is credibility. And then the next, you know, then you get into uh pathos and logos, which is emotion and logic. But you gotta have the credibility first. And so I I just started thinking more in terms of that's what's missing for salespeople, and people salespeople want to achieve trust. How you do that, you gotta start with credibility.

David 17:03

And that's a great place to end our conversation for today. See Lee Smith, CEO of Sales Fuel and author of this really nice book. Please get it for yourself. It will help you a lot. Lee, thanks so much for sharing your expertise with our audience today. Thanks for having me, David.

Announcer 17:18

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