David 0:00

Every listener to this podcast, in one way or the other, is a leader. And today, more than any other time, organizations need strong leaders. The question for today is how can you use organizational intentional skill building to make that happen? We'll find out on this episode of Shift Shapers.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

This is the Shift Shapers Podcast, connecting benefits advisors with thought leaders and entrepreneurs who are shaping the shifts in the industry. And now, here's your host, David Saltzman.

David 0:34

And we have asked Katie Irvin, who is the CEO of Catalyst Development, who is actually very well educated, we'll get to that in a minute on this subject, to help us with some of the questions that we have and that you have so that you can raise your organization and raise your leaders. I was always taught, Katie, that the first definition of a leader of the first duty is to define reality, and the second is to develop other leaders. So with that, welcome, Katie. Thanks for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

David 1:00

It's our pleasure. So talk a little bit briefly about your journey. How'd you come to be doing what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah, so it's been an interesting journey. I like to tell people, you know, you're you're patzel leadership. It is not a straight road. It's windy and messy, and we make mistakes, which led me here. So I did 12 years of corporate HR and then did another 12 years in higher ed administration, really working in operations. But my heart, who I am, it's all about the people and how we help people reach their full potential. And so the universe gave me a great gift and an opportunity to do something really scary and start my own company to live my passion. And now as I reflect back on my life, I've been doing it since I was a kid. It's always been about how I get the right people in the right seats doing the right thing. So I'm just fortunate now to be doing this, you know, all day, every day.

David 1:59

You know, I've had kind of a similar journey on the benefit side and been privileged to lead some national organizations and do things I never thought that I would have the opportunity to do. I never thought of myself as a leader. And somebody gave me Robert Greenleaf's book about servant leadership. Is that where you start? Do you have to have a servant's heart in order to actually be a really effective leader?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

You know, there's such debate out there. You know, is it servant leadership? Is it not? It's so funny. I actually just had this conversation with someone. As leaders, one of the biggest challenges is we have to lead our people how they want to be led. And that's different. You know, I have a client where, you know, I always tease the hardest thing about working with people is the F word, feelings. And everyone's feelings are different. And so some people want to be recognized and acknowledged for the work they do, and that inspires them to do more. Other people are like, I don't care if you ever say thank you. Like, I get intrinsic satisfaction from it. And so to me, a leader is the person that gets to know those around them and finds ways to inspire them at the level they need to be inspired.

David 3:06

So that's your operational definition of leadership.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Mm-hmm. Yes.

David 3:10

That makes sense. So as you go from corporation to corporation and organization to organization, what's missing? What's that disconnect that you see most often?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Oh gosh. I will say the one most often is, and I think this is getting better, you know, since COVID, but it's relationships. It's all about relationships. It's getting to know people. It's leaders being comfortable in transparency and vulnerability. So often we are afraid to show our gaps because what if someone will see that as a weakness? Or what if someone will try to exploit that? And as leaders, what we need to realize is it actually builds deeper trust when we're willing to be vulnerable and we're willing to let people know, like, hey, I'm not perfect. Let's really lean into that and how can we build a deeper relationship from that? So I think the biggest piece when I'm working with leaders is you got to be open to having relationships at work. And I will say, when I was young in my leadership journey, I took great pride in the whole, I'm your boss, I'm your manager, I'm not your friend, blah, blah, blah. We make that same parenting mistake sometimes. And I see, it's because I used to work in hospitality and I actually had to tell a chef one time, like, you can't do body shots off of your employees. We don't want to be that much of friends. I know the joys of HR. You don't want to be that much of friends, but what you do is you need to have that relationship where they know you care about them as the whole person.

David 4:43

Yeah, at the end of the day, is it really about creating a trust environment?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

It really, really is. I mean, people have to trust that you care about them, that you trust them to do their job, and that you're giving them the opportunity to do it.

David 4:55

When you first encounter an organization, how do you know pretty much instantly from your experience that this is going to be a challenge? What's missing? What do you see? What don't you see that you should in a healthier organization?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Well, I think one of the immediate things that gives us pause at catalyst development is those leaders that say, I need to do leadership training for my people. And then I'll say, okay, great. What works in your schedule? Oh, I'm not going to be there. And so a lot of times the challenge we see is leaders think, well, I've walked that road. I'm a good leader, I've been there. And so they're lacking self-awareness or lacking the understanding that it's important for them to continue to grow as well. And so when we go to work with organizations, if they don't have a true growth mindset and they're not open to exploring what a growth mindset looks like, then we're probably not the right partners for them. What they need to do is they really need to find someone that wants to pull something off the shelf, spend an hour, spew out some stuff, and move on. We really want to be the type of organization that helps you take yourself and your people to the next level.

David 6:05

So a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs and they're building businesses and they're growing their businesses. Do you find that there's an inflection point? Maybe it's different for every business, where what you were doing as a leader yesterday isn't working today and it's getting in the way, it's inhibiting your ability to grow the company you want.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, it's really interesting. My book is coming out very soon, and it's you might be an asshole and it might not be your fault.

David 6:30

Greatest title ever.

unknown 6:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I I love that title because so often, whether we're leaders or owners or, you know, just friends and partners, there's times where if people don't give us grace, we make mistakes and we appear to be an asshole. And so what we really need to do is have self-reflection and have a circle of trust around us, advisors, coaches, whoever that are willing to step up and say, you know, kind of that book, what got you here won't get you there. It's true. We need to constantly be growing. We need to constantly be working on ourselves so then we can work on our people and those around us.

David 7:13

Oftentimes, we'll stay on the same kind of general theme. Oftentimes, as businesses grow, they take folks who are really good managers, process managers, whatever, or great salespeople, and they promote them into a position that they call leadership because they assume that because they were successful in their previous role, they'll be successful in this role. But they're very different. How so? And what can somebody who finds themselves in that promotional upward tick do so that they don't peter principle themselves out as leaders?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, that's so important. And that's exactly what my book is and why I wrote it. Because throughout my HR career and just as a leader, what we do is we set people up to fail. We promote them because they're good at their current job and we're like, you're so fantastic. You're the best salesperson, you're the best server, you're the best whatever. We promote them and we either don't provide them training or we provide them ineffective development opportunities that then set them up to fail. And then we get mad at them because we didn't put them in a position of success. So there's several things that need to be done. One is, you know, if we're larger organizations, we need to have a true development plan for each individual. What does development look like for them? And how can they grow and fill their gaps? Everyone has different gaps. And so how do we do that? If we're an entrepreneur or a smaller company, smaller organization, what we really need to look at is not what they're good at, but what is their potential as we grow them. I believe that most people, if you're self-aware enough and you surround yourself with people that are willing to be kind and not nice, tell you the truth, help you grow. I really believe that the majority of people can do that. We just don't always put people in the position to be successful.

David 9:07

Yeah, I sometimes think in organizations the word nice is one of the most dangerous words that you can use because nobody wants to step on anybody else's feelings, nobody wants to hurt anybody. But if you're my friend, I feel as though I have an obligation to take you aside in a friendly way, in a constructive way, and offer criticism. And I would expect you to do the same of me. So we've talked a little bit about this from an external point of view. Let's talk about it from an introspective point of view. Somebody gets moved up the chain and they immediately have a serious, life-threatening attack of imposter syndrome. How do they work on themselves so they feel that they are not that imposter, that they belong there and that they can do what's expected of them as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, I love that question because the first thing is everyone needs to know we all feel that at some point in our life. You're not unique, you're not alone. And I think so often we're afraid to tell people that we're not perfect. And so people think, oh my gosh, it's just me. I'm just feeling it. So, first of all, when you're feeling it, you're not alone. So, from that, what do you need to do? There's a couple things. I always tell people, you have to really believe in yourself before anyone else can have full confidence in you. So, what does that require of you? It could be journaling. I tell people that I coach all the time, make a list of accomplishments. So often it's so easy for us to be like, well, I mess that up and I screw that up, and oh my gosh, the world's gonna come to an end. But assume positive intent, not just for others, but for yourself. I did this and I'm really great. Become your inner cheerleader, even if it doesn't feel normal, it will change your mindset. Trevor Moab has a great book. It takes what it takes, and it's all about a neutral mindset. So, how do we get ourselves from not being too up or too down? So I encourage people a lot of times to read that so we can kind of level set our expectations of ourselves and then of others. And then the other really important thing is find that advisor, coach, someone in your life that will be kind and honest, but also will be that hype person for you when you need it, and we'll be that reality set person when you need it as well. We don't want to get too high or too low where we're losing our true self and our true being.

David 11:30

But the dimension that sometimes gets lost, I think, as people move up the chain, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, is that they see themselves as moving up, but they don't see themselves as getting broader. They don't see themselves as having a better skill set and a more encompassing skill set. How do you help people in your business? How do you help people understand that it's great to have that super wicked great title on your business card? But this means that you now have to not only be better at your job, but you have to be better at all of these other things around you because inevitably you're trying to manage and get the best out of your people. And I'll go back to the beginning, grow other leaders, realize the potential in others and help them step up. How do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

You know, it's so important. And some of the research that is in my future is I want to help organizations understand that we don't have to move up to be successful. And not everyone should move up. There are people that are just not made to be people managers, and we should acknowledge and celebrate that and then help them extend out and grow outwardly. How can we add influence to them by giving them tasks that fit who they are to grow? Now, I will say for those leaders that have moved up and have more influence and are people managers, it is really important for them to have self-awareness. I love, love, love, an emotional intelligence assessment. It's really hard to argue with data. And while I do have my doctorate, I am not a data geek. I'm more of that qualitative feeling type person. But there are some managers who aspire to be leaders that need to see the actual numbers in front of them. And so giving them that data, there is a gentleman here in Kansas Civil Phenomenal work in trust and the levels of trust. And so, how we help leaders understand their impact on others, we sometimes have to shine a shiny and painful light in front of them to help them understand the impact they're having on other people.

David 13:35

In a lot of the organizations that I've worked with in my marketing practice, I'll find a mix of introverts and extroverts. And oftentimes, if you scratch beneath the surface, the introverts are the smartest people there. They are the most empathic people there. And yet they tend not to raise their hand when it comes time to be promoted. They tend to be unsure. And I think it's more than imposter syndrome. I think it's just kind of their nature. How do you help someone who's an introvert gain leadership confidence and leadership skills?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

I love this question. And as a at times obnoxious extrovert, I work really hard on myself to make sure that I'm pausing, that I am allowing the introverts in the room to speak. There is a great book called Living as an Introvert in an Extroverted World. I require all of my extroverts to read it and then go out and apologize to the introverts in their life. Because as extroverts, we think, well, how can you not? Like I get energy from other people. Why don't you? And so acknowledging, we acknowledge in so many other areas our differences, but we do not acknowledge the difference in extroverts and introverts and where they get energy. And so I actually will do level setting when we're doing training. I will talk about the importance of the introvert's voice. I will talk about the importance of acknowledging, you know, they're formulating what they're going to say before they say it. Where us as extroverts will just babble until we get to the point. And then the introverts are like, well, I'm not going to say anything now because we just sat here and listened to Katie babble for 10 minutes. So I work really hard to be more thoughtful. And then I also normalize and celebrate the introverts around us. And so we do a lot of work with our clients on the importance of that. The importance that just because you're the loudest in the room definitely doesn't mean you're the smartest or have the best ideas. And so helping organizations understand that is really valuable. One of the women on my team, Emma, she is an introvert. And so we actually do some skill building around networking as introverts because it's really important for introverts to understand we see you, we understand you, and we support you. And then as extroverts, that we come alongside, and as Emma likes to say, be emotionally supportive extroverts as opposed to overshadowing extroverts.

David 16:13

Yeah, it's interesting. I once I was involved with some work with a sales organization, and you know, somebody said something about there was one person who happened to be a like a died-in-the-wall, came out of the womb as an introvert. I said, you ought to cherish that person because there's the only person here who thinks before they open their mouth.

unknown 16:27

Yes.

David 16:28

All the rest of us extroverts, just as you say, just blurt stuff out and babble incessantly, but they've got a different vantage point. And it's it's frequently really useful to the organization.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

And helping introverts plan their schedules to be highly successful. They know they're going to have more energy at the beginning of the day. But let's set them up for success and where we really need their engagement, you know, plan it to where they're not already drained.

David 16:53

Is in the organizations that you coach, do you find that more often than not, culture is downstream from leadership?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Oh, you know, culture, that is such an I could go for this for days. I love this question. Leadership really sets the tone for me for culture. And it's really the leader's responsibility to make sure that we're creating an environment where we have a healthy culture. I actually had to leave an organization because they didn't have a healthy culture, but the quote unquote leaders were fine with where the culture was. And so I had to acknowledge I'm not a fit for the culture. It's not you, it's me. And if you're okay with it, I'm not. So the leaders really set the tone. And so then it's it's our responsibility as, you know, team members to decide does that culture fit our value system? Does it fit who we want to be? Because we can beat the drum that it's a toxic culture. But if people aren't doing anything about it, if they're fine with it, you know, that's a challenge. And at some point, you're gonna make yourself sick trying to fix a culture that either is unfixable or that the leaders have no desire to fix. And so that's a hard pill to swallow when you think you're in the right place and then you have to acknowledge, oh, it's me. I'm not a fit for the culture. This doesn't fit with who I am.

David 18:22

Well, and that's why we need people who do what you and your organization does, because as I tell clients sometimes about things about marketing, it's really tough to read the label when you're inside the mayonnaise jar.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah. Yeah.

David 18:33

And that's a good place to stop our conversation for today. But when the book comes out, we definitely want a copy and we want you to come back and talk all about it because the title, You May Be An Asshole, but it may not be your fault, is just the awesomest title ever. So kudos to you for that. Katie Irvin, CEO of Catalyst Development. Thanks so much for sharing your expertise with our audience today.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Thank you so much. The Shift Shapers Podcast is a production of Shift Shaper Strategies and may not be reproduced or quoted in whole or in part without our express written permission. Copyright 2020, all rights reserved.