Speaker 1: 0:02

Change either energizes or paralyzes. The choice is yours. This is the Shift Shapers podcast, bringing the employee benefits industry interviews with individuals and companies who are shaping the industry shifts. And now here's your host, david Saltzman.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Hi, we're in kind of an unusual location. We are broadcasting from, or recording from, I should say, the Ascend Conference in Salt Lake City, utah, and we're talking to some folks who are here because all the industry's best and brightest are around. And we're privileged today to be talking to my buddy, john Troutman. John is Vice President of Business Development at Mind Club America and we're going to talk about what he calls the mutual mystification in mental health. Welcome, john.

Speaker 3: 0:52

Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for allowing me to be here, dave. It's an honor and always great to see you, and it's a great privilege to talk about mental health here at Ascend.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Well, thank you and I'll forego all of the obvious jokes. Well, thank you and I'll forego all of the obvious jokes. So we usually like to ask our guests how did you start doing what you're doing? How did you get to be doing what you're doing today? How'd that happen?

Speaker 3: 1:12

Yeah, great question, and that's a story. So I was a pastor for about 20 years, but before that I grew up in a home where my father grew up on a dairy farm. My other grandfather from my mother's side worked in a steel mill. So probably goes without saying I was taught workaholic principles from very early on. Both my parents worked very heavily and were very busy, so my grandmother would show up at our house on the weekends getting us out of the house early, pulling weeds in the garden. The list goes on there.

Speaker 3: 1:40

But I learned and embraced early on the strong work ethic, but what I didn't embrace is balancing that out. So, being very driven, I didn't understand the power of taking breaks or pauses. My job also became a big part of my DNA. So there and became the challenge as a pastor was when is it okay to take a break? When you're serving people and you're serving your creator, your God, when is it okay to stop?

Speaker 3: 2:05

And those were unhealthy years and it just took me burning out severely, quite transparently, to understand that I needed to get the help that I was trying to get others when they would have similar situations. So it actually cost me about six months of going for intense counseling, understanding and requiring behavioral change, of going for intense counseling, understanding and requiring behavioral change. And David, going through that time, even though dear friends were trying to help me, they didn't understand how this workaholic could now be inanimate, not doing anything. There are people in this industry who today call me the godfather of GSD and in those times they wouldn't recognize me. So, looking back, I don't blame those folks who could understand.

Speaker 3: 2:46

But, going through that myself, I came with a decision. You know what, if I have to go through this, I want to leverage it to make it a better situation for others so that they don't have to go through with it. And I actually committed a number back in those days and I was like you know what? I want to see a million people get the help they need with better mental health. So that's what I'm passionate about. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing today with my club. And again, it's an honor to be here to send and talking with you, my friend.

Speaker 2: 3:13

Well, you know, it is amazing or maybe it's not so amazing how many of our guests over the last 11 years start their business with a personal story. Something happens and they think there must be a better way. And you know, I tell people often when we talk about our guests with apologies to Simon Sinek, most of our guests don't start with why. They start with why not, and then they go find and build a better mousetrap. So it's great to have you here. So let's talk about this phrase that I used at the beginning. What is the mutual mystification in mental health? It sounds great.

Speaker 3: 3:45

What does it mean Well, that's great, and again, I'll be careful on time, perhaps because I could go on and on in different avenues. But I think it's very interesting in an industry where we have a month set aside for mental health awareness, so many people are talking about mental health in that month. But I'll be rhetorical here and act like Plato to Aristotle. What are they doing about that, David? What decisive actions are they taking to change the solutions they're bringing to their employer groups?

Speaker 3: 4:13

One of those mystifications is that there just is no help out there, that it's just too long. They can't get timely help when people need it and the carrier plans are not robust plans. These networks are overburdened. It takes too long to see people, especially with medication management, it's taking on average three to five months. So these are real world problems still going on and most of the networks that are out there are not good networks. So the mystification is there are some networks out there. Mind Club is one of them. Certainly there may be others.

Speaker 3: 4:50

I'm not here to talk about my competitors, but I'm here to talk about what we're doing. I'm proud of it and I'm proud to represent the brand because we're providing access to counselors, to the opportunity to have medication management in two business days, not months. We understand the complications that can take place when people have to wait. It's difficult enough to get people to go to get the help they need when it's involving their mental health. Telling them thank you for coming and setting up an appointment We'll see you in three months is not a solution.

Speaker 2: 5:18

So you know, once upon a time I was involved with a company that helped people employers do their MHPAEA reporting, and one of the places that they inevitably would fail is access. Is access a real problem or is that a red?

Speaker 3: 5:31

herring. So again, great question. And access to care is a challenge for a lot of these groups because, again, they're attached to a network that is not strong enough to handle the employee load. And there was that opportunity those employees who have a need, and what MindClub does. Or should I wait to talk about that later? I can go either way here. So you're 25 minutes, beautiful.

Speaker 3: 5:52

It's why I'm doing what I'm doing is because I sat in the seat of working for an EAP provider before and one of the things that frustrated me was the fact that we couldn't get people in to get the help they need when they took those action steps to get help. And that's one of the things that we do. Is we, before we take on any group and I'm telling all advisors this we need 90 days. Certainly, we could probably build that network in a much more timely manner, but just have that understanding that we need 90 days to make sure it's going to be robust enough before we take them on, because I don't want to be replicating a problem that exists out there in these poor carrier networks. So we're going to look at that census. We're going to understand where they are, the demographics of that population. If language is an issue, we want to make sure that we can support them at their point of need, so that when they reach out to us, they're not going to have to wait longer than two days to see a clinician.

Speaker 2: 6:46

We've talked oftentimes on the podcast about predictive modeling and about how we've basically run an industry for years, looking out the rearview mirror. A lot of times mental health is reactive or care for mental health is reactive. Are there ways that it can be proactive, and what do those look?

Speaker 3: 7:05

like Great question and again, that was one of my pain points at an EAP provider was the fact that the key statement was we're there when you need us. But the reality when it comes to mental health is there are many things a person can do to invest in their mental health so that they don't need you later on, so that you don't need to have a meeting with a clinician. So cognitive behavioral therapy is a big part of that process. And when people can just simply take a very brief assessment and get feedback to understand what their baseline is or where they are today and also take some steps to improve their mental health over time, it's no different than going to the gym and saying today I can't bench press 100 pounds, but over the course of time, if I add these weights on, I will be able to do X amount of weights.

Speaker 3: 7:53

That's what we're doing in the mental health space is by helping people understand, initially through an assessment three to five minutes what their baseline is, where are they today as their base, and then working with them so that they put out those steps, those appropriate measures, and then we engage them through our app, through also our platform, which could be text messaging emails encouraging them, using gamification and also rewards to inspire them to keep taking that action so that they don't follow in my footsteps and burn out later because they didn't realize what was going on. I didn't know I was burning out, I just know I needed to show up every day and one day I woke up and I couldn't move. So those preventative measures of engaging a tool it's actually going to be fun and inspiring, encouraging you along life's journey, and that individual's putting in that data is very beneficial in being preventative and proactive as opposed to reactionary.

Speaker 2: 8:50

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Speaker 3: 10:57

corner, absolutely. And another great question. So communication is so important, but the different types of communication, where is that communication coming from? So what we do right out of the gate is we have a kickoff call with the entire management team. We ask them to take the three to five minute assessment. We want them to experience what their employees are going to experience.

Speaker 3: 11:18

So that number one, they can say to the employee population hey, this is something that we've done. It's very simple, it's not long, but it's worth it for your mental health, please follow us. And we have found that when the leadership does that first the employee, there's a greater response for the employees to participate in that and it makes that employee conversation we have ongoing much easier to have and much more supportive because they know it's a safer environment for them to get the help they need. Even though everything is HIPAA compliant and confidentiality, people are still concerned about the HR person knowing, or whoever, if they have a mental health issue. So we start with a leadership first so that they know they've already forged ahead and taken it themselves.

Speaker 2: 12:02

So let's dial back a couple of steps. Perfect, I'm a benefit advisor. How do I start having this conversation with an employer who is already up to their eyeballs in point solutions and trying to figure out how not to spend tons of money in addition to what they're already spending and yet attract and retain the kind of employees that they want? How do I have that?

Speaker 3: 12:25

conversation. What do I say? Yeah, I guess one of the questions is how you know, are you concerned? Are you genuinely concerned about the mental health of your employee population?

Speaker 3: 12:35

A lot of people, a lot of employers, do not want to pay for mental health because of what's going on. Again, this falls under the umbrella of mutual mystification. People are paying X amount of dollars per employee per month and the reporting is not great. And why am I saying that? Utilization? What does that even mean in mental health? If you ask eight different mental health solution providers, you might get eight different answers right.

Speaker 3: 12:59

So we avoid that conversation and I would avoid that as well of asking the employer are you passionate about your population when it comes to mental health?

Speaker 3: 13:07

If so, would you be open to engaging a provider that will do the heavy lift and that's engaging your employees on the front end, not waiting for these things to happen. That's engaging your employees on the front end, not waiting for these things to happen, because over the course of time, we can get those results by them putting in their own data. So I think that's a big part of it is most people are willing to say they're willing to participate in Mental Health Month right and mental health awareness. But are you really willing to let a group come in and access the appropriate data so that we can engage them on a regular basis? Because you know a lot of people ask me what's a good size group? That's not a question to be asked. For me, it's a good group for Mind Club is those employer groups that are willing to embrace engagement, because that's where the results will happen. Engagement over time can change behaviors, can start new habits and create a healthier population, not just in mental health but in physical health.

Speaker 2: 13:59

Is part of the conversation With employers what it's costing them, both hard costs and soft costs.

Speaker 3: 14:06

That's a great point right there and that could be from a standalone plan. Again, I'm not here to throw mud at my competitors, but I talk to advisors every single week and sometimes daily. They're talking about thousands of dollars being spent, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a month being spent, and they don't even know what the utilization is, let alone what the utilization might mean if they were ever given a report. They literally weren't given a report, and it was a $65,000 bill a month. So what are they spending on it? Have they seen any results? What do the utilization reports say? Do they break it down? Are they getting sessions or is someone merely going online and looking up other types of resources? I'm not downplaying those other resources, but we are a mental health solution. We are not the bells and whistles of an EAP that provide all those other outside circular benefits that can be beneficial in life, which they do serve as a benefit, but we are very serious about mental health and that is what we do.

Speaker 2: 15:05

They benefit but we are very serious about mental health and that is what we do. So, looking forward, what do you see happening, both on the employer base and also with mental health? Is the crisis in accessibility going to ease off anytime soon? Is AI going to help? I mean, what kinds of things are you seeing on the horizon?

Speaker 3: 15:24

We're seeing a lot of things with AI developing that are helping people on a daily basis.

Speaker 3: 15:29

I think the employers out there there's been a big shift.

Speaker 3: 15:31

I think when COVID started there was a big surge in EAP providers. I think the reality is the lack of quality utilization reports being granular in detail to explain what that actually means. As opposed to X number is your utilization and that's it. Employers want to know what they're paying per employee rates for and a lot of them just don't know because the utilization reports are so vague or they're not getting one. So I think the future is holding a shift towards more robust solutions because I believe and we are seeing firsthand employers want to see results. They want to see an increase in employee morale. They want not just a healthier population, they want a happier population. They want employees to show up knowing that they're glad to be a part of something and again goes back to your initial statement of the why they can feel that when the employer backs a solution that truly is going to impact their mental health, not just be a tag on or something that's embedded, that over 50% of the population doesn't even know what it is or how to access it.

Speaker 2: 16:37

And this is an issue, is it not? Regardless of how the plans are funded and regardless of what size the plan is?

Speaker 3: 16:45

Great question. So, again, at MindClub, we can bolt onto any plan. It doesn't matter if it's fully insured, self-funded, direct primary care. We could put boots on the ground in the case with working with community health plans, whether it's DPC or hospital systems, and I think that's a powerful solution when you're working with a provider that says we are not a cookie cutter. You tell us what you need, we want to solve the problem first, that's what's going to be best for you, then that's the way we need to build it and we go from there and that's a great place to end our conversation for today.

Speaker 2: 17:16

John Troutman, vice President of Business Development at Mind Club America. John A, always great to see you and thanks for sharing what you guys are doing and how you're trying to help the mental health crisis in this country. Thank you so much, david. I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor and our producer, hatcher Media. Hey, if you need podcast production or professional graphic design, josh Hatcher is the expert to contact. For more information, visit him at HatcherMedianet. That's H-A-T-C-H-E-R Media dot net.

Speaker 1: 17:50

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